Are we guilty too?

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

I know I am one of the first to bang on about turners selling substandard work and undermining my/our living by devaluing our  work. So as a discussion point I thought I would introduce this.......
    We all moan about not being able to realise the true price of our work through undervaluing by others (not just woodturners but customers too) so what do the manufacturers feel when they see money saving ideas on this and other websites that may help prevent the sale of their items? I am just as guilty of this as the next person, ie one of the things I do is not buy 12" diameter sanding discs, I use 4" wide abrasive and carpet tape and it saves me a fortune but if we all did it soon the discs would stop being made. I thought of this in B&Q this morning because I noticed they are now selling a clear acrylic sealer in a spray can and it is cheaper than all my/our normal suppliers.

[bodrighywood]

I think we all are John. I have tools and other equipment that I make myself rather than spend a fortune on the new ones (as long as I use safe materials of course LOL) I do get annoyed like many at people who sell work off at cost price with no charge for labour, skill factor etc but not sure I feel guilty about making my own sanding balls with velcro or captive ring tools with old allen keys etc.

Pete

[Les Symonds]

..... I thought of this in B&Q this morning because I noticed they are now selling a clear acrylic sealer in a spray can and it is cheaper than all my/our normal suppliers.

Hi John...on a similar note, I ran out of cellulose thinners and with Chestnut products costing roughly £10 for a half litre, I decided enough is enough. My local car-spares shop got me 5 litres for £18....the equivalent amount from a Chestnut dealer would have cost about £100. Do I feel guilty? Nope!
Les

[Bryan Milham]

John,

I think you are comparing apples with pears (and not turned wooden ones). To start with the DIY sheds work on a huge mark-up on the items they sell. One inventor I spoke to told me the item he thought up retails at an 120% mark-up, since then their 60% off sales don't mean quite the same thing to me.

But thats what they are - retailers, not manufacturers. The companies who make the products they sell get the price they want (can't always say that about Tescos etc and their food producers though).

We are manufacturers, not on a grand scale, but on a local supply level. Hence we need to source the best priced items we can (or make them ourselves) to keep our costs down to the level where we can be the local supplier of our goods.

None of this answers the problem of substandard items being sold by turners or turners undervaluing their products though.

[edbanger]

I work on both sides of the coin, I have a company that sells tools and fixings and we don't work on anything like 60% if we are luck on tools we might earn 25% but then I have the overheads of staff, rent and all the other stuff that goes with it.

Selling my work I do not do yet, because I would not want to sell something that I would not be willing to buy myself.

But what ever you sell there has to be a profit in it otherwise what's the point in selling it, we have to compete with the sales against companies that can sell tools cheaper than I can buy them for, but if you offer a service and good knowledge about your products you will find that people buy from people. I think if you can make your work stand out and display it well, you will always attract a customer willing to pay the price you want to charge.

Ed

[afrancis]

My local car-spares shop got me 5 litres for £18....

I got 5 litres for £11 including courier delivery on fleabay.

[BrianH]

What we are discussing here is the very basis of capitalism.
As soon as we use words like shoddy or undervalued about someone else's stuff  are'nt we actually saying more about our own thoughts and biases than the bloke in question's work or selling practises?
There's a famous truism that there is a buyer out there for everything and all a seller needs to do is find him. Therefore as long as a buyer and a seller are happy with their deal everyone else should surely live and let live and get on with finding their own rather than bemoaning the other guy's luck, sauce or cleverness.
PS.  If you read between the lines you will see why I stopped doing craft fairs to look elsewhere for my golden customer, please let me know if you see him!!
Byeeeeeeeeeee
Brian

[bodrighywood]

There's a famous truism that there is a buyer out there for everything and all a seller needs to do is find him. Therefore as long as a buyer and a seller are happy with their deal everyone else should surely live and let live and get on with finding their own rather than bemoaning the other guy's luck, sauce or cleverness.
PS.  If you read between the lines you will see why I stopped doing craft fairs to look elsewhere for my golden customer, please let me know if you see him!!
Byeeeeeeeeeee
Brian

We aren't comparing like with like though. Those of us who try to earn a living from our craft / art have to try and keep our costs down but also need to be able to make money to put food on the table. Those who make and sell to subsidise their hobby have different goals and can therefore sell at cost if they wish. I certainly don't see that approach as luck, sauce or cleverness but as a different set of values. I'm not saying it is wrong per se, just different. Part of keeping costs down for the professional turner is inevitably looking for ways of cutting the cost of production with the sort of savings that John originally mentioned. If. as a professional turner I were to charge for every little bit of material, tooling wear and tear, time etc plus transport costs and so on I would be charging a lot more than I do.
Like John, I do feel that turners who sell work that is of a poor quality are undermining the perceived value of the craft but that is another issue.

Pete

[woodndesign]

There's a famous truism that there is a buyer out there for everything and all a seller needs to do is find him. Therefore as long as a buyer and a seller are happy with their deal everyone else should surely live and let live and get on with finding their own rather than bemoaning the other guy's luck, sauce or cleverness.
PS.  If you read between the lines you will see why I stopped doing craft fairs to look elsewhere for my golden customer, please let me know if you see him!!
Byeeeeeeeeeee
Brian

We aren't comparing like with like though. Those of us who try to earn a living from our craft / art have to try and keep our costs down but also need to be able to make money to put food on the table. Those who make and sell to subsidise their hobby have different goals and can therefore sell at cost if they wish. I certainly don't see that approach as luck, sauce or cleverness but as a different set of values. I'm not saying it is wrong per se, just different. Part of keeping costs down for the professional turner is inevitably looking for ways of cutting the cost of production with the sort of savings that John originally mentioned. If. as a professional turner I were to charge for every little bit of material, tooling wear and tear, time etc plus transport costs and so on I would be charging a lot more than I do.
Like John, I do feel that turners who sell work that is of a poor quality are undermining the perceived value of the craft but that is another issue.

Pete

I'd consider it fair comment as too each contributor to the Forum, whether or not a paid up member of the AWGB, yet not of the RPT, exhibits the very best in work, so who or where are the ones' deemed to undermining/make/sell substandard work that slip through. The whole agenda of the AWGB is to advance Wood Turning at all levels, as with any like Forum, though this Forum is by Turners, for Turners, then why through constructive comments and advice aren't we helping these very Turners, than by criticism, which they may not even read, this Forum only reaches very few after all.

As there is such concern, more over pricing than some clear standards should be set. The question has been asked before and a range of all sorts of answers have come up .. blank size x @@@@ and the likes, yes it is to take in overheads etc .. etc .. then Pete, like said 'I would be charging a lot more than I do'... Then why not .. the wood fairy has called on you.

Myself, as with other members would be the last to want to under cut anybody, even if it's to make a living, which has become more difficult these days... So lets work out values and Prices.

Maybe on pricing, we should picket the Supermarkets/Stores for selling cheap bowls/kitchenware... then do they see value in such.

Cheers   David

[BrianH]

Anybody setting out to buy or sell a 3 wheeled rust bucket would be ill advised to visit the emporium of Mr Rolls and his oppo Mr Royce. Likewise, it seems to me, serious crust-earning woodies should be avoiding the, usually down-market, haunts of their nemesis' Mr Cheap and Mrs O'Shoddy who, let's face it, have little interest and no responsibility whatsoever for other people's mortgage arrears.
Come on guys and gals get real, surely the underlying problem is that the woody market, at all levels, is just too crowded for everybody to live in the manner to which they feel entitled.
The words 'heat', 'kitchen' and 'exit' spring to mind!
All the best on your chosen career path............
Brian

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

Some varying comments but I disagree with Brian H about the market being crowded, I don't think it is, in fact there are not enough of us to go round but............most of those in the market have "served their time" before entering the market and I am not decrying those friends of ours on this site but I am a firm believer of learning the skills first and then going into business as learning on the job, as we have all seen, undercuts and undermines the value of others work.  I suppose it's partly my own fault, I should have been an electrician or a plumber, they have to serve their time before they can go on their own and trade as a skilled person whereas anyone that owns a hammer and saw, regardless of whether they know how to use it or not can call themselves a carpenter!! But today the boot is on the other foot...why? I hear you ask. I am taking part in the cloth roads arts week and in conversation with one of the organisers mentioned that I call myself a turner not an artist (some of them are so far up their own..... .) This person mentioned that in her opinion( she's got an art degree you know)my work is "up there with the best of them".
      So I'm not sure where "up there" is but I'm glad to be there and I didn't put a lot of effort in I just did some turning. Pay back!!!

[bodrighywood]

I joined an 'artists' group when I first moved up here and couldn't cope with the attitudes there myself so I can empathise John. I agree that the market is not overcrowded. I do very few of the smaller craft markets simply because the overall emphasis is on the hobbyists and people coming in to them rarely what anything over about £10 - £15. The biggest problem in my opinion is that being a turner, however good you are is just the tip of the iceberg if you are trying to make a living. It's the marketing and selling that is the hard part. Some like Richard Findlay find a niche market and are able to gain both a good reputation and the business but for many of us who endeavour to earn a living finding the right market is a lot more difficult than making things. You can be the best turner in the country but unless you can somehow get a name for yourself and sort out the market for your work you are going to struggle. Personally I would rather struggle doing something I love than be financially comfortable doing something I hate. Been there, got the T shirt....never again.

Pete

[woodndesign]

I joined an 'artists' group when I first moved up here and couldn't cope with the attitudes there myself so I can empathise John. I agree that the market is not overcrowded. I do very few of the smaller craft markets simply because the overall emphasis is on the hobbyists and people coming in to them rarely what anything over about £10 - £15. The biggest problem in my opinion is that being a turner, however good you are is just the tip of the iceberg if you are trying to make a living. It's the marketing and selling that is the hard part. Some like Richard Findlay find a niche market and are able to gain both a good reputation and the business but for many of us who endeavour to earn a living finding the right market is a lot more difficult than making things. You can be the best turner in the country but unless you can somehow get a name for yourself and sort out the market for your work you are going to struggle. Personally I would rather struggle doing something I love than be financially comfortable doing something I hate. Been there, got the T shirt....never again.

Pete

Wood Turning is not all about making bowls, it is far reaching than that, it's to turn your hand to be able to make anything.

Then if it comes to bowls, there is Robin Wood, then that's another niche/trade/craft/skill.

As for/if it comes to Business ... firewood anybody... Have Chainsaw, hedge Carpentry carried out.

David