Colouring wood

[Tim Pettigrew]

This is an interesting discussion!

If I want a really good finish I have found that it is perversely quicker to have a wider range of additional gradations of abrasive paper.

For example my usual routine uses: 100, 120, 150, 180, 220, 240, 280, 320, 400 (and for a super smooth finish), 500, 600

This succession eliminates the scratches left by each previous  abrasive much more quickly and effectively than say jumping from 120 to 180.

I have tried using "used" or "worn" coarser abrasive papers to substitute for finer grades but it just never works like that for me and just introduces unwanted abrasions.  I tend to use each strip (or disc if power sanding) of standard cloth backed abrasive once and then discard them.  After much experimentation and trying different combinations I have found that this method works best for me in producing consistently good finishes.

Tim

[Lazurus]

On a slight aside what do you find the best abrasives, I am a recent convert to Abranet I find it is quicker and produces a better finish than even the best quality abrasive papers.

[Frankenwood]

Wow! Just wow.

My thanks to you all for your informative and helpful contributions. Obviously I've been going about it all wrong. So far I've not had the time to get into the shed and get to finishing a piece - started one the other day but had a catch and threw the piece off and damaging it beyond repair😭

Particular thanks to Derek and Burywoodturners for your technical guidance and support, I'm going to be able to use your advice and make informed decisions now about why I use that grit.......

To the Bowler Hatted Turner, great support, thank you. Yeah, I feel that if you join a club, any club woodturning or not, then it is incumbent upon you to support it (and this is for every member of every club) and if a comp is there then enter it, to the best of your ability. Breaks my heart when I see clubs fold because no one cares enough.... Anyway that's a rant for another thread I reckon. Wanted to say, specifically, that I do bevel rub - I've got and read the bible by Keith Rowley (brill book, should be a requirement, in my opinion) and have had to re-learn some of my technique, cos I had developed bad habits.........still have some of em too, but I am improving slowly😀

Seventh, words fail me. Beautiful bowls man, just beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing them with us. When you use wire wool, is that actually during the application of the oils or between coats? And I think you are the first to mention natures sandpaper - the shavings from the piece itself, why don't we do that more often do you think?

Tim😀 That's a whole new layer man! Interesting that you discard after one use? Surely that gets pricey?

Once again thank you all for your contributions, I'm finding it fascinating and helpful, and now I'm about to take some this into the shed with me, any advice for sanding green cherry......?

Regards

[seventhdevil]

i wire wool as a last pass before i buff with the shavings as it just gets it that bit finer.

i also cut back the oil if i am applying lots of coats once it has cured just to get any particles that may have settled on it then wipe with kitchen roll whilst it's spinning then a apply more oil.



stu, the 180g sandpaper i use is made by mirka called PROMAX which i believe is for the automotive industry and seems to me to get a finer finish which you need for a car body before it's painted...

[Frankenwood]

Hi all, I'm attaching a wee piccie of today's project - it's turned to form but not finished for anyone that may be interested. I'll post the finished piece once it's done too.

For information:- it's cherry, cut about 11 months ago, finished to 180 as per directions given on this discussion, item stands about 110mm high and is a bud vase. I'll probably finish it with shellac then wax because I like that gleam I get from wax rather than a high gloss. I am anticipating some movement from the wood and am interested to see how it will go (club meet in about two weeks, so hopefully not too far before then)

Regards

[Frankenwood]

Oops! See attached.

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

Frankenwood, in the interests of being constructive I make the following observations. It appears that you have some chatter around the edge, this can be anattractive method of decorating but I feel in your case it is because of poor tooling. It happens because the chisel is held at the wrong angle and with too big overhang over the tool rest, rotational speed also plays a part. It also looks like there are still snading marks on the top.Go finer with your abrasives. A good piece to start on though, well done.
Where abouts are you?

[Frankenwood]

Hi Bowler Hatted Turner,

Thanks for your comments, ALL constructive comments very gratefully received😀 Indeed you are right, very slight chatter marks round the rim - I hadn't noticed them nor was I aware the they had happened🙁 At that point it would have been the skew chisel and as I was taking VV light cuts most likely at take off or trying to be too light. Anyway they are there and hopefully I can minimise them with sanding. You are correct too in say that there are still sanding marks, but as I'm not finished sanding yet I think I can get away with that.........

I'm way up north in the badlands.....

Many thanks for you help.

Pete

[Bryan Milham]

Lots of good advice and tips in this thread so I'll quickly throw in some of my own.

Don't waste money on expensive abrasives at the course end (60 - 180), any painters abrasives will do and are far cheeper. You only need good abrasive for the 2 or 3 final grades. But you must work through the grades properly.

I love you idea of making your own stain from artists paint and spirit, I've never heard of that before. So even as a newby turner, you have brought something new to the fore.

I'll try anything to work colour in a different way, shoe polish, crafter's spritzing sprays, they all offer something but the one thing I always failed with is Wax crayons. You look at them, they are coloured wax and think they would add colour, nope, never managed to get anything worthwhile from them yet.

Keep turning, keep posting and keep asking questions. I information in the hive mind of this forum is astounding.

[Frankenwood]

Hi dr4gonfly,

Many thanks for your kind comments.

Right now I'm working through the abrasives I've got - a job lot of wet and dry 320-1200 - though I did find some mesh discs I bought a wee while ago for my circular sander, only 80, 120 and 280 tho. Have just bought some discs for power sanding, in the correct grades, because I'm no longer physically capable of hand sanding off the lathe.

I've been working on a couple of pieces for the club comp the last few days and will get round to putting them up here once they are as ready as I can make them😀

But, in furtherance of this discussion, I had some thoughts regarding using acrylics for colouring wood. It occurred to me that acrylics are water based ( and this was borne out by the absolute mare of a time I had mixing the stuff, even using meths as the spirit) and I had a go on a waste piece and the results are good, better than I expected if I'm honest. Now, if you've a mind to have a go, be aware, it takes VV little colour from your tube to work. You won't need a huge tube, even a sample tube will do. Just dab a little into your container and mix it with a huge quantity of water until you have the palest of washes and then paint it on, be quick cos it goes in fast and dries nearly as fast...... now, it should be said, I wanted a pale transparent colour which showed the grain, if you want more solid colour then use more paint, experiment first until you get what you want.

One of the benefits I can see is that the range of colours and shades available with artists acrylic is absolutely HUGE, being an artist (ex really, but it never really goes away) I have large selection available to me. But as colouring is not really my thing, believing as I do that wood is in itself truly beautiful and adding colour is a bit like gilding the lily.......(not that there's anything inherently wrong with colouring, no offence intended to anyone who does like it or use it) ...., I'm not sure that I'll make that much use of it.

I'm reasonably pleased with my results and once I've got it to the level of finish I desire then I'll post a picture.

Dr4gonfly, have you tried using crayons as a 'stick' and then polishing? Not something I have any experience of.......

[Wood spinner]

Hi Frank ?

I can pass on my thought and proces re sanding

Before I go anywhere near my turnings with sandpaper I allways feel the work with my fingers , Lathe set at slow speed run your fingers along the work piece and you can feel undulations easily , Back to work on the high spot or low spot with a round nose scraper ( Or whatever tool you prefer ) Then and only then start with the sandpaper , I start at 120 and work through all grades up to 600 , DONT miss out any grades as each finer grit paper will remove and sanding marks from the previous grade , miss a grade and the finer grade cant cope with removing the sanding marks .

Re how I sand , I use a small piece of cut up mouse mat 50 x 75 from a computer as a backing for the sandpaper ,

Now sandpaper , A hole new topic , Sand paper basics are grains of sand glued onto backing paper , The job is to cut the wood surface with sharp edges of each grain of sand , The faster you sand ( Lathe speed ) and the harder you push the faster the edges of the sand round off = no more cutting affect and this then leads to heat build up , Can cause micro cracking on the wood surface as well ,

When sanding with a backing pad at slow speed and a small piece of sand paper , rotate the parer 4 times , 12 o'clock , 3 o'clock 6 o'clock 9 o'clock then bin it

Look behind the paper and you should see fine dust coming from the turning , if you hold the paper on the workpiece for to long a perion the paper will clog up with dust and stop cutting , start gennerating heat = No good
Also when using the mouse mat and paper method you can feel when the paper stops cutting and starts gennerating heat ( It burns your fingers ) I this happens you have held the paper in one position for to long .

This heat build up is what kills rotorey sanding pads and the velcro  sponge then fall off as the heat causes the glue to melt .

Slow and steady with regular re positiong of the paper wins the sanding procedure

Try it and see how you get on

[GBF]

 Copied from my Blog

Sanding
Don't ever underestimate the importance of sanding as it can be the making of a piece.
There is nothing worse than to see a piece that somebody has made and you can see sanding or tooling marks that could have been removed with just a little more time and effort.

Sanding a bowl.

It is important to get as good a finish of the tools as possible as this makes sanding easier and you are able to start with a finer abrasive.
If you have a bit of tear out or tooling marks then start with an abrasive that is course enough to remove them.It is no good starting with say 320 grit to remove tooling marks or tear out it simply will not work.Start with 80 grit if that is what it takes to remove any marks and and tear out.
When you are sanding your bowl slow down the lathe to about 500 rpm and sand across the bowl using very light strokes.This applies to the inside, rim ,and underside of bowl.
Do not press hard with your abrasive as this will create heat and wear out the abrasive.When you have finished with your first chosen grade of abrasive you should have a good shape that is free of tear out and tool marks .If it isn't take the time to go back and do some more sanding as this is the most important bit.
If you are now satisfied with the finish you have achieved with the chosen grade of abrasive move on to the next grade.The important thing to understand is that each grade of grit can only be expected to remove the sanding marks that the last grit left.Never go more than 100 grit apart in other words don't expect 320 grit to remove marks left by 80 grit it wont.
It is also a good idea to wipe the bowl over with tack cloth between different grades of abrasive as it is possible that some loose particles of abrasive can be left on the surface.
If you find after sanding to say 320 grit and you can still see marks don't keep using 320 grit go back to say 120 grit or 240 grit and work your way up again.Do this as many times as is necessary as it is the only way to get a perfect finish.

Another thing to remember is that worn  240 grit abrasive is not 320 grit abrasive.When it has lost its sharpness it should be thrown away and new abrasive used.

Hand sanding is something I very rarely do anymore as it is slow and hard to achieve a surface without slight sanding marks.
Most of my sanding is now done with the Simon Hope Pro sanding system.I have found this system to be so much quicker and more efficient than hand sanding.For some time I used electric drills for power sanding but found the bearings on the drills wore  very quickly and the noise of an electric drill can soon get on your nerves.
The beauty of the Simon Hope system is the the head revolves at the speed the revolving wood wants to be sanded at.

I have no  connections with Simon Hope and I get no rewards for recommending this tool the only reason I recommend it is because it really does work.
There is another similar system on the market but it is nowhere near as good as the Simon Hope system as The Simon Hope system has free running bearings and the other system has not.

Sanding Between centres.

All  of above applies when sanding between centres.
When you sand between centres the grain is running parallel with the lathe bed therefore as you sand with the piece turning most of the time you are sanding against the grain.It is very important to keep the abrasive moving briskly from side to side.Obviously this is not possible when you are sanding coves or beads but the sides of coves and beads are actually side grain therefore they are OK to be sanded without moving the abrasive from side to side.
Good tooling is more important on spindle turning  so as to retain the crispness on coves and beads Etc.
It is very easy to sand away detail when sanding between centres therefore more care needs to be taken.
Another good tip is to stop the lathe between grits and gently hand sand with the grain.

[Bryan Milham]

Frank,

Yes I've tried the Crayola type crayons and they don't impart any colour, however I've now bought some Artists Oil Pastels, they might give a better finish, I'll try anything.

Acrylic Paint, recognising you say you are (were) an artist, I know they can be mixed with water, but I'm not sure it's the best medium for that. Tamiya do an acrylic paint thinners, and it's Isopropyl Alcohol. I used to paint wargame figures.
Too much water made the paint break up but the isopropyl just thinned it.

You might also find that using water raises the grain, requiring additional sanding, whereas isopropyl does not.

[Frankenwood]

Hmmmm, oil pastels, there's a thought. Let me know how it works.

Artists acrylic are a water based medium which, when dry is impervious, as its water based it is difficult to mix with most spirits. I used denatured alcohol ( or methylated spirits if you like) which I thought might be easier than a standard thinners. It was, but not by much. I was aiming for a transparent glaze, which I thought I got close to. Actually I was very pleased with it. But using water to thin the paint works well, but you have to be very quick and flood the piece, if you let any part of your piece dry then you will get an overlap where you cover the dry section, this effectively doubles the coverage resulting in a darker stain at that point. And water is acrylics natural element. If you want a solid colour then the approach with acrylics would be different I reckon. And water shouldn't 'break the paint up' it'd be unusual for that to happen - with artists acrylic at least.

As to raising the grain, that happened but it's not really an issue for me as I'd sand lightly afterwards anyway, and I got almost as much raised grain with my spirit based stain.

The way around the raised grain, which worked for me, was to seal first then sand then stain then seal. I used a shellac sealer, that gave me a better finish and better colour.

It is still a work in progress and maybe always will.

Thank you all for your continued support and advice.

Pete.

[Bryan Milham]

All this say that you are really experimenting with this colour thing.

Well done and keep us up-to-date. We are all learning from you and your previous experience with painters art colours.