Rules for a beautiful vase

[Sevilla]

I would like to propose a discussion on the rulses for a beautiful vase. In general it is said the the master formula for a pleasing shape is the golden ratio: divide or moltiply a measure by 1.618 and you get a pleasing proportion.
Then there is the rule of the thirds: divide a space or measure in three and you get a pleasing proportion. The foot of a bowl should be 1/3 of its diameter.
Now I'm no expert of course in chinese pottery but I love that little I've seen. Different from the roman/greek pottery or the european one. In many cases the rule of the thirds seems to apply but in some of my preferred vase I do not see it. Here are two examples taken casually from the internet.
I love their proportions. Where do they fit in the general rules?

[edbanger]

Sevilla I think these sit in the golden rule if you take the main body it's around 60% of the piece the foot and the rim take the other 40% between them.

The golden rule is nearer 60/40 than thirds I think that people use thirds as it's a simpler way to split the work up.


Ed

[Sevilla]

Ed, It is difficult to measure from pictures but the proportion of the goldem rule can be approximate by 8 and 5. The first vase, easier to measure has a diameter of 11.5 inch and a base of 4.5 inch and should have been 7 inch for the golden rule and 3.8 by the rule of thirds. The second vase has these measures, 8, 6 and 3.5 which to me are away from the golden rule
My point is that these rules must be interpreted very loosely and other factors, not always easy to notice are in play to determine the effect on the eye of certain shape.

[edbanger]

Hi Sevilla

I was not taking in to account the diameter of the piece as this I would not have known I was just going by the height of the piece and using my thumb as a guide.

I'm not sure that I would use the diameter of the piece as part of the rule otherwise if say you were turning a piece say 18" tall the diameter would have to be around 10" or if you where turning a bowl of 18" diameter you would need a height of either 7" or 10" yet many bowls are turned at 18" in diameter but only 4" high.

I use the design rules purely for the height.

Ed

[seventhdevil]

beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

i go by no rules at all and usually let the wood dictate the shape, if someone likes they'll buy it.

[Mark Sanger]

Sevilla

Often the rules of form and shape require them to be connected to the purpose of the vessel, this being the case it may be necessary to consider utility and stability first followed by aesthetics.

The golden ration is a huge subject and I have several books dedicated purely to the ratio alone.

Here is a link to a book for the ratio in  'Functional Pottery' hopefully it will go some way to answer your question.

Not a subject that can be answered in one sentence, at least not by myself  

Division by 2 is also used often in functional items and something I use for the foot diameter of say a functional platter for cheese etc.

[Mark Sanger]

beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

i go by no rules at all and usually let the wood dictate the shape, if someone likes they'll buy it.

How can you go by 'no rules' surely if there aren't any rules then you can not go by them in the first place   sorry just my attempt at humor  

Seven

what you say ties in directly with the rules, we humans see things in relation to the ratio. IE if we look at something and it immediately looks beautiful, balanced, and dare I say it 'right' then there is a string possibility it fits into the divine proportion/golden ratio, this  Beauty and the ratio

Leonardo da Vinci's "Vitruvian Man", is said to include the ratio and you can see in  this article how it can be broken down to the proportions of a humans fingers, the spiral of a snail shell.

So you may find that in fact you are 'following the rules'   but just don't quite realize it.  

[seventhdevil]

well alright, i should have said that i don't follow any strict rules.

most peoples work (mine included) would probably fit in to certain rules if you read them i just feel that if everyone was to follow the same rules we may all turn out work that looks very similar indeed.

i do let the wood dictate the shape a bit and probably unconsciously turn the rest away to make it look nice in my eyes and being part of the human species (just) most likely have those ratios pre programed in my brain as to what we think looks good...


there will still be some that think "wow thats beautiful" and some will say "eeeuuurrgh".

[Bryan Milham]

Sevilla,

The Golden Mean can be compounded several times into one form. A wide bodied vase made to the ratio, with a tall neck, also made to the ratio, where the neck and the vase are sized to the ratio.

I've not posted a picture, but Mark Sanger has several illustrated in his book and can probably post an image of one he's made as well.

Something else to consider is that it there is more than the Golden Mean, any number combination from the Fibonacci sequence works well.

[andersonec]

Take your pick..............

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vase+shapes&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=pQQXVeC7IY2yaY2zgrAE&ved=0CCEQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=655

Andy

[Sevilla]

Sevilla

Often the rules of form and shape require them to be connected to the purpose of the vessel, this being the case it may be necessary to consider utility and stability first followed by aesthetics.

The golden ration is a huge subject and I have several books dedicated purely to the ratio alone.

Here is a link to a book for the ratio in  'Functional Pottery' hopefully it will go some way to answer your question.

Not a subject that can be answered in one sentence, at least not by myself  

Division by 2 is also used often in functional items and something I use for the foot diameter of say a functional platter for cheese etc.

Certainly I agree with you and your conclusions were essentially the reason I wrote my post: there is no single rule that can define  all the forms and necessities. But there re vase that look good and other that do not. This is the problem.
Vases and treenware must, in my opinion, be utilitarian id est be used and improved by the dried flowers or the salad or the milk that can be put in them but they can also have an indipendent more artistic life and  be considered piece to primarily enjoy visually.Certainly the golden ratio is useful but try to insert an house with a roof based on the golden ratio in an area of victorian houses. It will look awkward but taken by itself it will give you  a nice sense of calm and stability.
In my opinion we see too many vases and hollow form that taper in that tiny and unstable base without foot making them totally useless and feeling unfinished. But now they are in fashion and we have to live with them. Roman, greek and asian vases all had a foot and this makes sense functionally and aestetically. Their sense of beauty was much more developed then our in my opinion and always combined form and functionality. Than there were the masterpieces that could be used but often only displayed for their beauty.
a final not. If you look at the famous Vitruvian man by Leonardo but also many other drawings of human body by Leonardo you can notice that the proportion between the legs and the trunk are more typical of the italian than the scandinavian or northern european people in general of which he probably had less familiarity. But in those drawings he was trying to portray the human perfection!
Regards.

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

Probably part of the reason that I am not an artist is because I get terribly confused about about the golden mean and Fibonnaci and all that, I don't really understand it (probably not clever enough) so I just make stuff and if it looks right I am happy,as time goes on more stuff looks right than doesn't so perhaps subconsciously I am learning to appply the principles automatically.

[Eric Harvey]

I`m with the,if it looks right it normally is,worked for me so far,cheers,

Eric.

[Mark Sanger]

Probably part of the reason that I am not an artist is because I get terribly confused about about the golden mean and Fibonnaci and all that, I don't really understand it (probably not clever enough) so I just make stuff and if it looks right I am happy,as time goes on more stuff looks right than doesn't so perhaps subconsciously I am learning to apply the principles automatically.

John

It has nothing to do with you not being cleaver enough as with all things it is not easy to understand to begin with, but once you know the answer it is simple  there are books dedicated solely to the ratio The Secret Code is one I purchased some time ago as I wanted to drill down my own knowledge about it and Fibonacci, it is well worth getting. although all the info is free on the net but I prefer a book and a comfy chair.

Once you get into it see that everything around us in nature etc is built around the ratio and you see the beauty of it, understanding it (and continually learning about)  has helped hugely with my work and it isn't overly complex.

[Mark Sanger]

I`m with the,if it looks right it normally is,worked for me so far,cheers,

Eric.

It is a skill that some naturally possess, you have the force so to speak 

It is good though, especially if we want to sell our work to know that what looks right to us will also appeal to our potential customers. Applying the ratio does not mean all of our work will be the same, classical, modern and minimalist are all very different but through history all have included the ratio as a basis especially in architecture and music to list a few.