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Discuss - Technique or end result?

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Paul Hannaby:

--- Quote from: Richard Findley on September 13, 2013, 12:23:21 PM ---technique is less important than the end result...

--- End quote ---

Before I give my answer, some observations...

There is an assumption here that there is a right technique and a wrong one. Who decides (or dictates) which is which?

If there was only one way to do things, there would only be one of each type of tool but instead, we have "signature" tools on offer from a wide spectrum of experts so it must follow that each one has a different technique.

My answer to the question is this - neither the technique nor the end result is important, it's only for decoration after all!

woodndesign:

Interesting on the "signature" tools and the experts name on it, how should it differ from any other of that kind, it has  been developed by technique to be the ultimate tool for a purpose, then a similar tool can be ground to the same profile, why pay dear for a name on a tool, it's not going to make anyone else a better turner, less they understand the technique involved with it.

As Keith Rowley would have advocated, follow the basic laws of turning, bevel contact, master spindle work and stringing design together in that form, practise, practise and practise, you'll perfect form and in time, design... and continue improving.

Les Thorne puts it as turn to a sandable finish and that's not 60 - 80 .. more like 120 - 180 .. what should it be, Les.

If anyone needs to practise their tooling skills, try pine and then say technique doesn't play a part in a fine finish off the tool.

Cheers  David

The Bowler Hatted Turner:
An interesting thread and some interesting answers,some that have surprised me.
I am sure we all want a good end result. As we work at something, anything it doesn't matter what, we will develop a better technique for doing it or making it, that I think is human nature. When I was working on the bench we used to say that joiners were the laziest workers,why? because to achieve the good end product that most joiners end up with we used to make jigs and patterns to make repetitions easier.This is just best practice, not necessarily the right practice.
        I support Andy's view about learning the rules before you can break them, if you do not understand the rules then the reasons for having a lesser quality cut will not be evident but if you have never had a good quality cut you will not understand what all the fuss is about, it is only by using correct tool application that will allow you to explore the myriad of uses and different applications that lumped together make up what is termed technique.
       One of the problems facing a production turner like myself is the inability to come up with original designs, I pride my self on being able to make anything I am asked to make, but it is not my design.
So to all intents and purposes I have a tool missing from my armoury, that of vision or design or whatever you wish to call it and no amount of good tool technique will enable me to create something new and different. But good tool technique will allow me to choose the quality of the end product more accurately than poor tool use will.
Imagine that all the turners in the world have different ideas about the craft and they all spend their time walking around a pyramid that has 4 sides so there is a chance they will never meet. Now imagine that all those turners decide to climb the pyramid and so with a bit of common thought they all end up on top and eventually all will meet and that will only be achieved in real life if we all want to improve.
Regards
John BHT

Mark Sanger:
This is always an interesting subject. I am not sure what the comments were suggesting that 'technique is less important than the end result', if it was my comments in the other thread I clarify by copying them again here.  

 'Woodturners as a whole do seem to be heavily involved/concerned in learning tool technique but do not seem to put the same energy into learning about design'.

I believe there is a marked difference in these two sentences.

Of course technique is important, it is very important. Anyone who has been to one of my demo's can make up their own mind if I pay attention to technique and how efficient it may or may not be.

I will take it that it was my comments which started you off Richard on this thread.  :)

So here are my thoughts.  :)

Just as Les said they are my opinions. I would however say that on numerous occasions they have been reinforced by my contact with galleries and many makers including woodturners, so are based on evidence and not just pulled from the air. ( not that you were insinuating this Les) but your point about our opinions is valid. And my thoughts may not be relevant to someone working in a different way to me.

The craft of turning has it's foundation in technique and this history and skill should never be disregarded, as tool technique is the 'foundation' of what we do and is the vehicle we use to achieve what we set out to make.

But then all crafts are founded in technique. Research any pure artists, sculptor, glass or ceramics maker and you will find all that they make comes from technique, every brush stroke, moulding of the clay is founded in technique.

I always say at the beginning of a demo something like this.

'What I am going to show you is not the only way to work, it may not be the best way, it is just my way, the only thing I say about technique is that as long as what you do is safe and it works for you to produce the end result then go with it'.  

I also go on one to say ' always strive for good technique but do not be a slave to it, technique will come in time with practice, but also concentrate on design and finish, as this is what people see'.

The more I hear the words 'professional' or 'hobby' turner, the more I dislike the distinctions. Nothing against anyone using them, but these distinctions hold little in reality. There are some in the former that produce work less refined than those in the latter, so I personally discount the distinction and just look at the end result.

If you are full time and make a living you may be in one of three camps.

1/ A pure production turner producing for the main, pre-designed work/replication of existing items. As such the amount of money earned will directly relate to the efficiency and level of your tool technique, with the design consideration being a replication of the customers drawings or items brought in to be replicated.

However the design and quality of work will be the perfection of beads, coves etc within the overall piece with the end visual quality being what the customer will pay for.

Indeed will they pay for a stair spindle of pair of candlesticks where the details have been sanded to oblivion. ? They are paying for the quality.  

Does the customer hand over the money as they are happy with the end result or the fact that you may or may not have rolled the beads with a skew or spindle gouge. !

2/ Aesthetic, gallery, commission work. Small batch or one offs sold in the main as an interior accessory. The prime consideration here will probably be the visual impact of the piece, unless you are selling items for pence, in which case people will be happy to part with their money for it.

If you do not need to make a living from your work then the efficiency of tooling is much less relevant than the end result as it just means you make less profit/percentage for time spent.

If you make a living from this type of work then you have to be efficient with your tooling but design comes to the forefront. The item is sold purely on design, how much profit you make will come down to both tooling and design. If the item does not sell due to poor design and finish the technique will have meant little.


This brings me back to the question that has been raised dozens of times over the years in forums, turning magazines etc. 'Why does turning not get the respect of other crafts' and 'How can we raise the profile of turning'.

This being the reason for my comments in the other thread.

So to clarify . Yes tool technique is very important but just think for a while how our work may benefit if we also spend as much time learning about good design as we do technique

How many times when you go to a demo or read a book/magazine do you ask or search out how the maker comes to create the design, or do you go straight to the tool and technique pages/questions. ? How often do you research and learn about design for your own projects beyond the prescribed article used as a base for exploration. ?

There will be some that pay a lot of attention to design and finish, these being the ones who work we admire, be it pure work or other, the type is for me not relevant.

Of course if concentrating on tool technique is what you enjoy then that's great, it is your craft and your time after all. Just don't keep saying you are fed up, or keep trying to work out why woodturning does not realise the same money or respect as other crafts if you don't hold design in the same respect as technique.

My thoughts, you can decide based on what you want to achieve if they are applicable or not to you.

 :) Richard  definitely think we should take some time in the evenings to discuss this at the next seminar.  ;) :) My first round.  :)

Mark Sanger:

--- Quote from: The Bowler Hatted Turner on September 14, 2013, 10:09:35 AM ---An interesting thread and some interesting answers,some that have surprised me.
I am sure we all want a good end result. As we work at something, anything it doesn't matter what, we will develop a better technique for doing it or making it, that I think is human nature. When I was working on the bench we used to say that joiners were the laziest workers,why? because to achieve the good end product that most joiners end up with we used to make jigs and patterns to make repetitions easier.This is just best practice, not necessarily the right practice.
        I support Andy's view about learning the rules before you can break them, if you do not understand the rules then the reasons for having a lesser quality cut will not be evident but if you have never had a good quality cut you will not understand what all the fuss is about, it is only by using correct tool application that will allow you to explore the myriad of uses and different applications that lumped together make up what is termed technique.
       One of the problems facing a production turner like myself is the inability to come up with original designs, I pride my self on being able to make anything I am asked to make, but it is not my design.
So to all intents and purposes I have a tool missing from my armoury, that of vision or design or whatever you wish to call it and no amount of good tool technique will enable me to create something new and different. But good tool technique will allow me to choose the quality of the end product more accurately than poor tool use will.
Imagine that all the turners in the world have different ideas about the craft and they all spend their time walking around a pyramid that has 4 sides so there is a chance they will never meet. Now imagine that all those turners decide to climb the pyramid and so with a bit of common thought they all end up on top and eventually all will meet and that will only be achieved in real life if we all want to improve.
Regards
John BHT

--- End quote ---

John

The fact that you production turn other people's design does not mean your work should be less regarded. This is what the job of a production turner is, it is a different animal. What counts is the quality.

You posted as I posted so some points will have crossed. This is why in my my comments I grouped in two camps, both have different requirements and I hold design in as much regard in production turning as other work.

What I am trying to get across is, if poor quality work is produced be it a spindle or hollow form, it will not be held in high regard.

The beautiful work of Burt Marsh and his ogee bowl is fine work indeed, he paid attention to refining the perfect ogee line.

Anyway I have added enough. Time for someone else to come in with their thoughts.



 

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