Rules for a beautiful vase

[Mark Sanger]

Sevilla

Often the rules of form and shape require them to be connected to the purpose of the vessel, this being the case it may be necessary to consider utility and stability first followed by aesthetics.

The golden ration is a huge subject and I have several books dedicated purely to the ratio alone.

Here is a link to a book for the ratio in  'Functional Pottery' hopefully it will go some way to answer your question.

Not a subject that can be answered in one sentence, at least not by myself  

Division by 2 is also used often in functional items and something I use for the foot diameter of say a functional platter for cheese etc.

Certainly I agree with you and your conclusions were essentially the reason I wrote my post: there is no single rule that can define  all the forms and necessities. But there re vase that look good and other that do not. This is the problem.
Vases and treenware must, in my opinion, be utilitarian id est be used and improved by the dried flowers or the salad or the milk that can be put in them but they can also have an indipendent more artistic life and  be considered piece to primarily enjoy visually.Certainly the golden ratio is useful but try to insert an house with a roof based on the golden ratio in an area of victorian houses. It will look awkward but taken by itself it will give you  a nice sense of calm and stability.
In my opinion we see too many vases and hollow form that taper in that tiny and unstable base without foot making them totally useless and feeling unfinished. But now they are in fashion and we have to live with them. Roman, greek and asian vases all had a foot and this makes sense functionally and aestetically. Their sense of beauty was much more developed then our in my opinion and always combined form and functionality. Than there were the masterpieces that could be used but often only displayed for their beauty.
a final not. If you look at the famous Vitruvian man by Leonardo but also many other drawings of human body by Leonardo you can notice that the proportion between the legs and the trunk are more typical of the italian than the scandinavian or northern european people in general of which he probably had less familiarity. But in those drawings he was trying to portray the human perfection!
Regards.

Savilla

Design involves a great deal of subjectivity, IE you do not like hollow forms with a small undercut base where as I do, for me they float and have a flowing line, they are not for a purely aesthetic form unstable or useless at all, they are interior accessory produced to enhance the living environment, just as with a picture or sculpture so their use is visual but no less than a utility item.

For me wide bases look cumbersome, heavy and break the flow of line, however for utility this has to be taken into account despite this base can still be designed to the ratio as shown the picture of the Chinese tea bowls above.

The foot of these bowls indeed have been made to the Golden Ratio/Divine proportion, so it can be applied for both utility and aesthetics.

In relation to Victorian houses including the golden ratio, Victorian houses as well as other forms of architecture from the Pyramids, Pantheon to modern day and all through the ages have included the Golden ratio, indeed it may not be in the pitch of the roof but the roof will fit in with the other parts of the building to the ratio so the aesthetics/ratio fit inclusive of it component parts to make up the whole.

The golden ratio was not invented by any man, it was discovered by man who observed that in nature there is a reoccurring mathematical ratio of 1.618, from the formation of plants, seeds the stars etc etc.

We indeed do not have to apply any rule let alone be a slave to it, nor does including the rule mean all our work will look the same, it is merely a mathematical ratio of perfection. I do believe however that if we understand the ratio then we can understand how to break it to our advantage but before this can happen we need to have a deep understanding of the foundation/ratio or it becomes difficult for us to develop our work beyond that of merely copying work that has been made before as we do not understand its construction.

Just my thoughts and it does not mean I am right at all, but the ratio is a very interesting subject to study and can have a huge impact on the way we think and approach design. 

[bodrighywood]

I have been reading this thread with interest. One thing I find both fascinating as well as down right annoying at times is how something that can look really good in one plane e.g. horizontal, can look awful when tipped up to another e.g. vertical and vice versa. I think most people can instinctively sense if a design is good, getting it right is a different matter unless you know why it is right.

Pete

[TWiG]

This is really not a fully quantifiable thing , beauty in the eye of the beholder to some extent , however something really beautiful in the opinion of the majority  will have ( hopefully ) many more wanting to behold it  !! The bowls shown at the start of this post to me are not attractive in shape ... more like spitoons or chamber pots , but probably worth more than anything I have made .  Many  philosophical and mathematical theories as to what is "right "  ( no idea how  x 1.68 applies   in the plant world ?! )  Fine art style pottery shapes eg chinese / japanese are often considered desirable , very highly crafted  but so is rough distorted  earthen ware  with raku style  finish  etc , variety is the spice of life !!  and I prefer not to try to religiously strive for the " perfect form " although some pieces are particularly pleasing but I am not really sure why , but I personally see the form as a shape to best display the beauty of the wood , not using wood just  to create a beautiful form , both together is ideal... £££££££    ... Terry 

[Mark Sanger]

I have been reading this thread with interest. One thing I find both fascinating as well as down right annoying at times is how something that can look really good in one plane e.g. horizontal, can look awful when tipped up to another e.g. vertical and vice versa. I think most people can instinctively sense if a design is good, getting it right is a different matter unless you know why it is right.

Pete

Pete

I know, it is annoying at times, the mind translates perspective differently depending upon how we look at something, the perspective is viewed differently, don't ask me why, not looked into it any further than it happens  I take my forms off the lathe several times toward the end before turning away the spigot, I take the chuck off and all so there is not an issue with re-mounting place it upright to see the form and then stick it back on for finishing. Sometimes it still doesn't work.     

[bodrighywood]

This is really not a fully quantifiable thing , beauty in the eye of the beholder to some extent , Fine art style pottery shapes eg chinese / japanese are often considered desirable , very highly crafted  £££££££    ... Terry 

I love oriental pottery and ceramics but when you look at the things I like it is the work that perhaps we see and think of as oriental. Some is in my eyes at least downright ugly. A quick look through this lot and I am sure many would agree

Pete

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

Iwatched the antique roadshow this evening on the beeb. There was a glass vase made by some eventual forger, although this one was an original, however I found myself looking at the shape from a woodturning point of view. The base was to wide for the width and height but I am sure that it would have been stable. So do we sacrifice stability for style?

[Sevilla]

This is really not a fully quantifiable thing , beauty in the eye of the beholder to some extent , Fine art style pottery shapes eg chinese / japanese are often considered desirable , very highly crafted  £££££££    ... Terry  

I love oriental pottery and ceramics but when you look at the things I like it is the work that perhaps we see and think of as oriental. Some is in my eyes at least downright ugly. A quick look through this lot and I am sure many would agree

Twig,
I opened the page you posted and found only beauty. There are different forms of beauty. Often beauty needs some education to be appreciated. How many people instinctively like classical music or operatic music or jazz or free jazz etc? Not many particularly in certain age groups. I consider rock music a kick in my ears and certainly will never spontaneously choose to listen to it. But when I was a teen ager I liked the Beatles, rolling stones etc that now I can easily live without. Why this change? Education. I was fortunate to have a friend that introduced me to John Coltrane etc and I started to appreciated that music that I still love. Also I was introduced to classical and operatic music and this is what i preferencially listen now but I have authors that I prefer over others. It took a certain efford from my part to "study" this music but at the end it becamy my music.  It was not an automatic step but a process.
Verdi? Mozart? Beethoven? Yes with many others. Wagner? Not so much .I found him genelraly heavy and redundant but others love him. Thus even in the classical field there might be subjective preferences although the notes and the music theory behind them are the same.

The goldan ratio. I know it quite well and I appreciate the sense of calm and erenity that it produces and try to use it. But frankly I never checked if Modigliani (my preferred painter) necks are in a golden proportion to the rest of his paintings. May be they do. I'll check it out as soon as possible.
Regards.

[ALAN THOMAS RPT]

I used to make lots of hollowforms and vases in the  late 90's and one thing I did to check if the shape worked was to take the whole thing ( including the chuck) off the lathe after the initial shaping, turn it upside down and look at it again on a flat surface with an uncluttered background. If the shape still looked ok then generally it was good to go. Because the piece was left in the chuck the piece was immediately ready to re-turn. I always tried to keep the proportions around the golden mean but usually used the thirds ratio as it worked just as well.  
I never let the wood dictate the shape either, I will always put form first and choose the wood or grain orientation to best display it. Woods dull or change colour ( sometimes for the better but not often ) and what you or your customer is left with is the shape. No amount of pretty wood will disguise poor design.

[Mark Sanger]

This is really not a fully quantifiable thing , beauty in the eye of the beholder to some extent , however something really beautiful in the opinion of the majority  will have ( hopefully ) many more wanting to behold it  !! The bowls shown at the start of this post to me are not attractive in shape ... more like spitoons or chamber pots , but probably worth more than anything I have made .  Many  philosophical and mathematical theories as to what is "right "  ( no idea how  x 1.68 applies   in the plant world ?! )  Fine art style pottery shapes eg chinese / japanese are often considered desirable , very highly crafted  but so is rough distorted  earthen ware  with raku style  finish  etc , variety is the spice of life !!  and I prefer not to try to religiously strive for the " perfect form " although some pieces are particularly pleasing but I am not really sure why , but I personally see the form as a shape to best display the beauty of the wood , not using wood just  to create a beautiful form , both together is ideal... £££££££    ... Terry 

( no idea how  x 1.68 applies   in the plant world ?! ) This online article is a good introduction to it

The book I previously linked 'The Secret Code' goes into more depth.

[TWiG]

I studied quite a lot of botany as part of my arboricultural education and from a quick read of the enclosed Phi I feel it is a ridiculously simplified theory , plants have so much variety , the example given might apply to bamboo perhaps , but what about contorted hazel for example ?  far too much to go in to detail here but I was wondering whilst looking at almost any tree what do I multiply by 1.68 ??  ... Terry                                           Sevilla...  I usually listen to Planet Rock when  in my shed !!!

[Mark Sanger]

I studied quite a lot of botany as part of my arboricultural education and from a quick read of the enclosed Phi I feel it is a ridiculously simplified theory , plants have so much variety , the example given might apply to bamboo perhaps , but what about contorted hazel for example ?  far too much to go in to detail here but I was wondering whilst looking at almost any tree what do I multiply by 1.68 ??  ... Terry                                           Sevilla...  I usually listen to Planet Rock when  in my shed !!!

Yes Terry it was a simplified example but I thought it a good place to start taking into account you initially said you had no idea how x 1.68 refers to nature. Many of your questions can be answered from the previous book I linked, I also had to study a lot about plants in my last job  and you will find the cannabis leaf as all are fine example indeed of Phi.  although I did not realise it at the time. 

The relevance for me is that it is a very useful tool for people in relation to further development in design. Of course we do not have to take any notice of it but I believe you can see the makers who have studied it as their work stands out. 

In relation to a contorted hazel, the twist, rise of twist and point at which new shoots develop are in direct correlation to Phi, this link this link, again it is very simple explanation but then Phi is very simple, at times however as for me initially, it appears overly complicated as with any subject, but with a short time of study it opens many more avenues to us than the relatively short time of frustration of learning, I guess it depends if you want to put the work in to study or not. 

People will be thinking I am sure,!!  what has this Phi fallooting stuff  got to do with wood turning beyond the proportions of a foot,  box or height. ?

The spirals on a stair spindle or those around a hollow form are examples as are the position of curve for the perfect ogee curve, again research of the ogee shows a direct relation.

I appreciate all this talk of a maths ratio may seem a load of tosh  but good design comes from an understanding of design itself, an understanding of design comes from the understanding of geometry and relationships and this means Phi, if not then why do graphic designers and architects have it included in their formal education ?, wouldn't be much good for an architect to say to a client ' well every now and then a building I make looks real good but at other times not but I don't know why' !! How can we as makers hope to develop what we do if we have little or no understand of the basics of proportion ?

The books and other links are useful for those that would like to delve into it further, if not no worries. 

Little more for me to add as I am a convert, so if you are interested get and study the book, if not don't  , simples as 1.618 

[TWiG]

1.6 is also a typical gallery mark up !! ha ha ...must be true ....

[Dave Brookes]

Not being naturally artistic, and have spent many years as a mechanical engineer I have always been fascinated by the mathematical rules in nature and recently found a book called 'Why do Buses Come in Threes'. Its a very thought provoking book and causes you to look in detail at things generally taken for granted.

Dave

[Sevilla]

Indeed at least in some paintings of Modi' it is possible to fing both the Fibonacci series and the golden Ratio. As known the Fibonacci series tend to reach the golden ratio which is an infinite number like the fibonacci series.
Of course we do not know if that was intentional. I suspect it was not and the phi was found because the painting proportions are so beautiful that "must" fit the Phi.
http://www.secretmodigliani.com/how.html

[edbanger]

The rule of thumb guides I use when designing my work seem to work for me be it thirds or 60/40 split

Mark thank you for the links I'll be doing some reading to get a better understanding.

I think that I also run some test piece's to see the feedback over the coming months.

Rock and Roll will never die in my work shop  Long Live Rock

Ed