Author Topic: C&C  (Read 6228 times)

Offline GBF

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C&C
« on: March 13, 2015, 05:33:30 PM »
What do we think C&C stands for is it Comments and critique or Comments and compliments.
Do we really deep down want members to offer honest critique on something we have made and think we have done rather well with.Or do we really want members to say how wonderful our work is and to make us feel good about ourselves.
When we start turning all of our friends and family tell us how clever we are and how wonderful everything we make is.
Then we join a Forum in the hope that other turners will further boost our egos.
Is it right or fair to tell new turners their work is good when very often it is far less than good would it not be better to be honest and say well yes you have made a start but you have a long way to go and you need to be more aware of good and poor form and good and poor finish.
And is form and finish subjective or are there forms that work and forms that don't.
I know it is important to offer support and inspiration but are we doing new turners any favors by not being honest with them.
I  regularly see new turners put up work asking for C&C and what they get is a lot of flannel is this helpful.
Please take note I have not given an opinion here I have just asked questions and I am interested in members views.

Regards George
The man that never made a mistake never made anything

Offline bodrighywood

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Re: C&C
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2015, 05:49:04 PM »
Anyone who is serious about wood turning should be willing to accept positive criticism IMHO. Personally I don't always like hearing it but usually get over the sulks after a few minutes. If I see work that a new turner produces I hope that I could criticise it by offering advice not just picking holes in it and that it would be accepted as such. I don't see a problem in praising a new turner if there is signs of an eye for design, or skill as long as it is honest not as you put it a lot of flannel. if it is a matter of design, form etc then I would state that something isn't perhaps to my taste but there are I believe certain things that just don't work and will always look bad. Done a few myself as I am sure we all have. For me at least the basic rule is not to give critique that I wouldn't be prepared to hear myself and try and phrase it in a way that it can be seen as positive and helpful. If I can't say anything at all positive, I say nothing as a rule. Mind you it can be hard, I had a student last year who I could see would never make a wood turner, no idea of form shape etc, couldn't handle the tools in any way that worked and couldn't listen to guidance. Then what do you Do?

Pete
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Offline ChrisF

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Re: C&C
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2015, 06:27:41 PM »
If I might stick my nose in as a newbie.....

I can get lots of ego boosts from friends and family.  For me the point of showing work on a forum like this is a) to share, we all like to share what we've done (don't we?)   b) to get open and honest feedback on my work as that is the best way to learn and to keep moving forward.

Speaking for myself I have a very thick skin.  I can take the criticism, learning from the bits I accept and ignoring the bits I don't  ;)

I may be a little different to the average newbie though.  I come from a creative background and earn a good part of my living through creative endeavor.  I understand the almost hidden level of perfection that the craftsman strives for, the way the almost invisible difference makes all the difference to the beauty and balance of the finished piece.  I understand that what looks excitingly fantastic to my untutored and inexperienced eye and wonderful to my friends and family may look quite different to a very experienced, highly skilled practitioner.  After all, when you've been practicing a particular craft for a long time you look at it with a very different eye.  You spot the tool marks that the inexperienced don't see, your eye jars slightly at the imperfect curve or unbalanced design.  These things can take a (very) long time to understand and to appreciate.  For me, it is that high level of quality that I want to achieve.

So I would suggest that maybe the level of c&c given needs to be adjusted according to the individual.  For some harsh feedback might put them right off the craft, for others they might not bother sharing if all they get is smoke blown up.....    Telling the difference.....that's the tricky bit   ;D

Offline Dave Atkinson

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Re: C&C
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2015, 06:33:39 PM »
I would like to think we could give an honest critique but this is very hard to do via a forum.  Face to face feedback is much easier, tone of voice, body language and facial expressions all help when you have to impart the news that actually "it's not very good at all". 

I was asked once for feedback on this forum, gave it and the recipient was very pleased (I know cos I spoke to him later) but I got criticised by another member for saying it as it was!  As a result I don't offer critique any more on a forum, unless I like it and can give it some praise.  If I don't like it I don't comment. Which isn't really what critiques are for.

Perhaps the originator should state whether comments and critique are welcome.  I think that may have been said before.

I have seen people praise things on the forum that I would have put in the fire.  At least that's what I would do now.  When I first started I didn't appreciate the difference between good and bad and as Georhe says all your family and friends think it's brill.  Later you realise it was rubbish.  My wife is my best critic. If she likes it it gets put out (at least for a while).  If I put if out and it's not up to the mark it "disappears"!

Offline Les Symonds

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Re: C&C
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2015, 06:45:18 PM »
It's a mine-field, George, isn't it.
Those of us who use forums regularly will easily identify those members who give nothing but praise on every thread that they view, whilst we also know which members will give a much more objective view. I will always be grateful to the frank, fair and constructive criticism that several members gave me in my early months as a woodturner, whilst I recognise that commensurate with that criticism, there were other contributors who simply praised my work - I learnt much more by being told where I was going wrong than I learnt by being told that what I'd made was 'brilliant' or 'superb'.
I firmly believe that there is a difficulty that any one of us faces when offering criticism of work in an international forum like this. Whilst most of our members are UK based, many are not, and it is clear that their nations' perception of fine shape and form, of decoration and of finish can sometimes be very different to ours - so who are we to criticise with a view to declaring our beliefs as being right. If what we perceive as being over-fussy, over decorative shape and form is the norm and very much in-vogue in the nation of the contributor, then perhaps they are right, and we are wrong to suggest that a more subtle, flowing curve might be better. For this reason, I prefer to criticise the quality of the hand-work, rather than the design element.

Les
Education is important, but wood turning is importanter.

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Re: C&C
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2015, 07:23:36 PM »
The few things I have posted on here are things I think are presentable and able to be shown on this site where there are very proficient turners and having only been turning for a couple of years I would appreciate all comments as long as they have some form of advice included, for example if my beads were not up to scratch then maybe some advice on how to put it right, any comments which will advance my turnings would be appreciated so negative but creative comments will do it for me, I think any comment made should be qualified with an explanation.
I have not yet made any comments on other peoples work because I do not think myself qualified to do so, there have been times when I do not like the 'shape' of an item but that is a personal thing and very subjective, because I am new to the game I will refrain from criticizing or commenting other peoples work,,,,,,for now..

Andy
« Last Edit: March 13, 2015, 07:29:48 PM by andersonec »

Offline edbanger

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Re: C&C
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2015, 08:39:54 PM »
I personally think that I improved my turning from the people that gave criticism if someone just said I don't like the shape hey ho that an opinion but when it's down to tooling marks and sanding I think that this should be pointed out to help others that have discovered woodturning.

If I like something then I'll say so. But as many if it's not my cup of tea I post nothing and I think that we can all learn a lot from no comment.

In truth who can say how good someones turning is from a picture you could post a picture of a hollow form that looks great from the picture but it might not even be hollowed out or the wall thickness could be really uneven or an inch thick.

Ed

Offline David Buskell

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Re: C&C
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2015, 08:58:27 PM »
There's been much debate on this topic elsewhere on another forum and I;ll post an article which was found to be useful.

We all learn about turning but not the finer things like how to make constructive and informative critique of a piece.

I;ll dig out the article and post it here tomorrow.

David
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Offline Mark Sanger

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Re: C&C
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2015, 10:15:57 PM »
Like most aspects of life, I think we can take it with a pinch of salt.

When I look at some of the pieces I see in the art world and how critics view them I often feel I am in a parallel universe as what I see is is not necessary in line with the 'expert'.

One of my passions is films, I am a film maniac, watch loads and loads. When ever I see a film win loads of Oscars I know 'for my taste' it is going to be pants, and when I watch them most are. But that does not mean I am right, just have a different view of what is good or not based on my preference.

A good foundation in any craft/discipline I believe is of importance, I guess this is why people that go to art school learn about the classical methods of Rembrandt and Rossetti, for me I don't see the relevance as I can use a camera so why do I need a paint brush. !!!

But does that mean the skills of these masters is wasted on me, or can I learn a lot from observing what they painted, more importantly, how they painted.

Then there is 'Observation'. We may look but do we see!! and how much information do we lose from not paying attention to what we are looking at. Until we are aware of what we are looking at how can we give critique ?

Is critique indeed relevant ?

Are those that give critique just inflating an already oversize ego ?

Do we need critique if we have deep understanding through observation ?

Does critique from our peers really help or does it stifle development ?

Just my thoughts.





 

Offline Steve Jones

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Re: C&C
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2015, 10:55:43 PM »
If you don't want people to be honest don't ask for comments.
We are all still learning no matter how experienced we are and there is always improvements to be made, no one is perfect. 
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder (as many poets have told us.)
We all like to hear complements but sometimes we see an object in a different light to others and if you intend to sell an item you need to know what the majority of people like for future reference. Other peoples opinions help us look at our work in a different way.

It is difficult when someone learning the skill asks for comments because you have to take in to consideration what they are asking for, do they want advise on the shape or on the standard of their work and before giving criticism the amount of experience needs to be considered.

Offline Graham

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Re: C&C
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2015, 08:12:53 AM »
Professionals, of course, get the ultimate critique when they put their item up for sale. Either it sells or not. Do those of you who sell at fairs and shows listen closely to the passing public ? Do they actually talk about pieces and what they like to each other ? Does wife say to hubby ' I don't like that' and why ?
Regards
Graham
I have learnt the first rule of woodturning.
The internal diameter should never exceed the external width.
Nor the internal depth, the external height.
Does that make me an expert now ?

Offline The Bowler Hatted Turner

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Re: C&C
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2015, 09:16:53 AM »
I know what it is like to be on the receiving end of constantly negative criticism, I can assure you that it is not pleasant especially if you are young and unsure of your self and abilities. It can drag you down into deep holes of despair that leave you wondering if you are ever going to get anything right. In some people this has led to more serious situations.
     I think the most important thing is to be honest because the minute you are not your opinion has no value. You should also be consistent,it's no good saying you like one particularly hideous piece if you then dislike an equally hideous piece, so you should quantify your reasoning. For every negative comment you should try to find a positive one in order to help maintain the enthusiasm of the maker.
       Harsh comments will always be construed as negative and so they should be avoided, instead a question could be phrased to highlight a perceived problem. I will sometimes set challenges for my students, things like ..."nice bowl, good finish not sure about the shape though, next time why not try making one with a round bottom inside?"it's a better way of saying " not another dog bowl!!"
       I also feel that the bottom line is the maker should come away feeling good after a critic even if the comments were not.

Offline Steve Jones

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Re: C&C
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2015, 10:00:59 AM »
Well said John!

Offline farmerphil

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Re: C&C
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2015, 10:20:55 AM »
I am a newbie and have posted just one item for critique to date and from the feedback have got some excellent advice on how to improve, which is the reason for the posting -to tap into a pool of skills and views.

I wanted and received, I hope, honest and fair feedback. Why bother otherwise, keep it clean but don't give me a load of old flannel.

Phil

Offline Bryan Milham

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Re: C&C
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2015, 07:38:04 PM »
I don't post as often as I should, but when I do I certainly don't want platitudes, I want Honest Criticism, I give it, I expect it.

It's how we learn.
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