Author Topic: Woodturning clubs and Minutes of Committee meetings  (Read 7417 times)

csbrown7

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Woodturning clubs and Minutes of Committee meetings
« on: April 22, 2012, 06:42:23 PM »
My woodturning club, that has to remain anonymous for fear of breaching "policy", has a policy of not publishing the minutes of committee meetings. A search on the web reveals many clubs and societies that both print and post their minutes on the web. Does your club have any policies or rules in relation to this or are there no secrets? Does the AWGB have any thoughts on the matter?

Offline John D Smith

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Re: Woodturning clubs and Minutes of Committee meetings
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2012, 07:15:49 PM »
Hi csbrown7, I would say the club probably has a set of rules/constitution where this may be stated I would think this is up to the "Club" and not a policy of the AWGB to get involved, assuming your Club is a member of the AWGB? I would personally think this is something you or other members could raise at your AGM.These comments are my personal view.Regards John
John Smith

csbrown7

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Re: Woodturning clubs and Minutes of Committee meetings
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2012, 07:26:46 PM »
John thanks for that. Those are your personal views, fair enough. So, I take it you are not answering officially on behalf of the AWGB? The club does have a constitution which does not cover this fact. It has no written policies, thank goodness, I wouldn't want to see that. Though it was agreed that this would be the policy at a previous AGM. I cannot personally see any justification for refusing to publish them. What does your club do John?

CB

csbrown7

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Re: Woodturning clubs and Minutes of Committee meetings
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2012, 07:44:24 PM »
George,

Thanks. A very reasonable and sound approach with which I can find no argument. I feel like I know you already! I have seen some of your work locally displayed last year and have thought about coming along to your club as it's quite near to where I live. Also we use the same man for our sandblasted projects, Simon  at Rooksbridge. He didn't give away too many secrets!! I may well be in touch.

CB

Offline Roger Groom

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Re: Woodturning clubs and Minutes of Committee meetings
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2012, 07:53:57 PM »
Hi CS
I cannot understand why your club does not make the minutes available. I was always under the impression that these minutes have to be proposed and seconded at the following years AGM. So why the secrecy. My own club makes our minutes available on our website in the members only area and provides a full copy at the following years AGM. Is it not done, just to save printing costs?? Lets hear the opinion of someone from the AWGB. Please.
Roger G

Offline Roger Groom

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Re: Woodturning clubs and Minutes of Committee meetings
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2012, 07:56:54 PM »
Hi CS
Sorry, Ive just re-read the string and its committee meetings you are talking about, not AGM's. Apologies.
Roger G

Andy Coates

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Re: Woodturning clubs and Minutes of Committee meetings
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2012, 07:27:43 AM »
I'll put the question to the AWGB committee and get back to you a.s.a.p.

In the meantime my personal opinion is that the committee members of your club are presumably elected by you, and are meant to be working for you. If you don't like what they are doing your members have the right, and power, to change it.

csbrown7

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Re: Woodturning clubs and Minutes of Committee meetings
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2012, 12:24:33 PM »
Thank you Andy. Much appreciated. Making changes is difficult, the shutters come down, drawbridges get pulled up and the old boys rally round. There are I'm sorry to say hidden agendas, if you try to get inside and involved then there is no chance.

thebowlerhattedturner

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Re: Woodturning clubs and Minutes of Committee meetings
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2012, 05:35:02 PM »
Hi Cs,
        I am the chairman of the Kennet and Avon woodturning club based in Trowbridge and I am also the AWGB rep for the SW.
Reading the AWGB constitution in the members handbook, which is available on this website, there is nothing written about minutes.
I have to say that my own club do not publish committee minutes we do however tell our members about forthcoming committee meetings and the invitation is there for our members to attend any committee meeting they wish with the understanding that they are not allowed to vote. We do this because if everyone turned up and wanted a say and a vote we might as well do away with the committee. Our club secretary is very good at producing minutes after a meeting and he always has an up to date copy with him on club night which is available for any member to look at.
       Our club has now been running for a little over 3 years, to date we have never had any ordinary member (as opposed to committee member)  turn up at a committee meeting. Our members are regularly advised and updated about the machinations of the committee.
 My personal view is clubs should be run as openly as possible but there must be a time when some things should be kept confidential.
My club has members of all abilities from professional to real beginners but they are all treated the same, we are lucky I suppose in that we do not have any "cliques" or those that think they are better than others.We all pull together and if there are any suggestions raised they are fully discussed and voted on. The sure fire way to get things changed is to stand for a position on the committee and make sure your views are heard.

As I have said these are my personal views and are not meant to reflect the views of the AWGB.
Regards
John BHT


Andy Coates

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Re: Woodturning clubs and Minutes of Committee meetings
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2012, 05:47:43 PM »
Hello again all,

I asked the question as I said I would and after reading what were unanimous replies I’m able to state the following:

1)   There is no requirement under AWGB guidelines to publish the minutes of general committee meetings.
2)   It is usual practice for any group to publish the minutes of AGMs and EGMs
3)   It is not considered inappropriate for a club member to request to see general meeting minutes, but is as likely that minutes are not taken as it is for them to be taken, so they may or may not even be available to be viewed.


So, having said that here’s my own view as an ex chairman of a club:

Most clubs, and not only woodturning clubs, have great difficulties in getting people to sit on the committee; last year saw a number of clubs almost close due to lack of member support in this area.  It therefore comes as no surprise to me that general committee meetings are informal and largely un-recorded/reported, as this would entail yet another series of tasks for a grudging committee to undertake.

As most of the “committee meetings” at club level are usually to agree bookings of demonstrators, sort out venue issues, or agree organisational issues then there is really little to report anyway.

I am certain there is nothing being actively kept away from the members of your mystery club, just that there’s nothing worth repeating other than the usual mundane issues a committee covers.

As a for instance...the AWGB Executive committee do not publish the minutes of our general meetings (which, of course, are recorded in minutes, otherwise we’d all forget what it was we agreed, disagreed on anyway!), and I suspect any call to do so would meet a stern refusal. Our AGM minutes are available as per the constitution.

I’m certain you have your reasons for your concerns, but I’d lay odds against there being any grounds for them. Woodturning clubs are only groups of people with similar interests, and the willing souls who agree to give their own free time in order to run them are to be applauded, not vilified or accused of having hidden agendas. What they could actually be is beyond me! Ginger nuts instead of hobnobs?

Committees are NOT clubs; they are simply the elected management group of a club, so any dissatisfied club member(s) have the right to challenge, or propose changes to procedure or management. That this rarely happens is most likely due to the unwillingness of most club members to do much more than keep a seat warm for a couple of hours a month rather than anything else, but might also be because most are happy just to have others arrange and plan for them and not have to worry about getting involved in any real sense. And it’s always worth remembering that with such a lack of support, any committee which feels it is unjustly attacked may well decide it isn’t worth it and resign. And without a committee a club cannot operate. So unless the dissatisfied are willing to step up it can be a risky line of attack. Simply from a financial standpoint, any club with a “club” bank account is required to have a committee with authorised signatories.

Also, any club member, AWGB or otherwise, can put them self forward for committee posts and committees are, in my experience, usually thrilled to have some offer of support. So maybe your concerns could be met by becoming more active in running the club?

csbrown7

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Re: Woodturning clubs and Minutes of Committee meetings
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2012, 06:35:19 PM »
A nice reply Andy, thank you. I have been an active member of my club for three years, always willing to get involved and lend a hand. I would challenge anyone in my club to try to argue otherwise. The facty is I "obtained" some club minutes because I was considering standing for nomination onto the committee. I found something on the minutes that I wanted to question and thereby naturally sought answers for. So I wrote to the Chairman, I didn't get a satisfactory reply and that started a series of e mails that culminated in me ringing the chairman to try to resolve our issues. I was still not satisfied so I wrote an open letter summarising our exchanges, I had told him that this was being considered. I later got an e mail from him telling me I had breached club policy by obtaining and publishing material from the club minutes amongst other accusations.
The club do post decisions of the committee on a door on club nights. When I requested copies of minutes and to attend a committee meeting I was told that my request would have to be put to the committee.
I recently put myself forward for nomination for several posts, after the chairman had told me that if I was interested in the work of the committee I should put myself forward.
At the AGM the Agenda, specifically the election of officers was changed from that originally circulated. One of the positions up for nomination was withdrawn. As a candidate it would have been good practice or polite to have been informed but I was not. The first I knew of it was at the AGM. Then there was another twist the election of officers would have to be carried out not as listed on the Agenda. This was to allow the secretary if he was unsuccessful to revert back to his old postion of vice chairman, that which he had given up to be the secretary.  Dubious practice  in my opinion. If the outcome was such that he did remain as secretary then the next twist was the person standing for chairman was an ex chairman. This again was a complete suprise to me. I withdrew my nominations. The fact is in my opinion they engineered the meeting to get the result they wanted.

Offline TONY MALIN

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Re: Woodturning clubs and Minutes of Committee meetings
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2012, 06:53:43 PM »
Hi

Being in the process of recovering from a major crash on my PC I'm glad of the chance to chip in here.

Having been on committees since I was at school in the late 30's I can safely say that the majority do not publish minutes. Some do.

But of course those that do would be careful to see that nothing personal or too contentious would be minuted.

This whole question has been debated in parliament recently regarding Cabinet Minutes.

The really clever part of Minutes is to be the Secretary and so decide what to put in and what to omit.

That jogs a cord. If at the next meeting a member of the committee claims he was misreported, the minutes get amended, so I suppose the final minutes are what count, by which time most of the actions will have taken place.

Tony Malin



Andy Coates

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Re: Woodturning clubs and Minutes of Committee meetings
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2012, 07:48:53 PM »
csbrown7...it sounds like your problem is one of personality clashes rather than an issue of publishing minutes or not. If minutes are not routinely published and somebody does so without explicit consent then I could well see an issue developing as you describe.

Might I respectfully suggest a private meeting be proposed between yourself and the committee to discuss, and hopefully resolve, these issues.

Clubs are by nature delicate organisms and their destruction is often the result of bad feelings and misunderstood motivations.

I'm sure both yourself and the committee want the same things - a happy and well-run club - and perhaps the problem is one of a difference of perception and execution?

Nige7

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Re: Woodturning clubs and Minutes of Committee meetings
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2012, 09:25:00 PM »
I have to report experiences opposite to Tony's.  I have also been on committees for a good number of years and most of them did publish their minutes.  To not do so can and does lead to accusations of cover ups and nefarious goings on.  As a parish counsellor I can confirm that our Parish Council minutes are always published.

Nigel

csbrown7

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Re: Woodturning clubs and Minutes of Committee meetings
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2012, 11:10:46 PM »
Hi Andy and Nige 7 thanks for your thoughts.

I'll try for the sake of sanity to draw this to some sort of conclusion. I do not think there was a personality clash prior to these events. I think I am a good club member who has always worked for the benefit and in the best interests of the club. I am easy to get on with but I don't suffer fools nor do I like to be fobbed off with half baked responses, that I can  accept make me difficult at times to deal with if you fit into one of those categories. So I'll defend myself. Here's what I've done for the club then you decide if you would like me as a member or not. I have run the club raffle every club night for two years and the last two christmas club raffles, raising about £1,500 for the club. I regularly submit articles for publication in our monthly newsletter, being one of the top contributors. Up until recently following winning the clubs wooodturner of the year I regularly submitted items for the theme of the month and items for the show and tell table. I have made articles to be used by the club at outside events to raise money. I have supported the outside events, demonstrated and promoted the club. I have had club members come to my house, receive my hospitality and where necessary assisted them in there progress at woodturning. Oh and most improved turner the year before. I am positive beyond a shadow of doubt that I have done more than most for the benefit of the club.
Now here's something else I did. I dared on one occasion over three years to ask the committe about a decision they had made, the information gained from minutes I should not have had (apparently). One of the results of that was that I spoke to one other of the committee members and some changes were made to try to go some way at addressing the problems I had highlighted. The chairman said put yourself forward if your interested in the work of the committee. I am,  so I did for any of three positions. Then the absolute disgraceful stitch up at the AGM took place. They decided they wanted to keep the old boys network in tact and engineered it accordingly, read my entry above. ( Do you actually see, understand what they did? They kept all the facts to themselves and changed it on the night, having planned it in advance and didn't tell any of the candidates). They ought to be ashamed of themselves. I am not without blame, perhaps I should not have taken the course of action that I did, but I felt that I wasn't getting a fair response, but I did try to resolve it by telephoning the chairman before taking that action. What saddens me also is that the rest of the membership sat there mute and just let it happen like it was all perfectly normal. I know what my options are. Why should I leave? But then again why should I work and support a crooked regime?
If minutes are made of committee minutes where is the harm in any member seeing them? Most won't bother. One reason put forward was that of what if disciplinary issues were discussed and someone was mentioned by name? How often are disciplinary matters discussed, hardly if ever I suspect. If they were the secretary by careful minuting could work his way around that. It is most definitely within the scope of this committee to do just that with ease.They might now be discussing disciplinary issues at this club.